In a recent post on TechCrunch, Penelope Trunk tells us (again) that most women don’t want to do startups.
First, I’d like to extend that to Asians, African Americans, Gays, and Latinos. Oh, and white men. Most of them don’t want to do startups either, because most people don’t want to do startups for a whole host of reasons.
Penelope tells us that women are different though, because women don’t want to join startups because women want to have babies. As evidence, she points out that most women downshift their careers as soon as they have babies, which of course makes startups impossible.
It’s not that women don’t join startups because of lack of opportunity or sexism or doing what’s expected of them or anything else. Now that we have completed defeated bias, all women can choose to do anything they want, and they are choosing to have babies rather than go to startups. Case closed!
Here’s the problem: Penelope, and other people who say things like this, are making my life a whole lot harder, and I’d like them to knock it the fuck off.
I’m not going to argue that most women don’t want to stay home with their children. Frankly, I don’t care what most women want to do.
I know what I want to do, and what I want to do is to work at startups. I don’t want to have children. I’ve never wanted children. I never will want children, and I certainly wouldn’t want to give up working at startups for them.
So, when a publication like TechCrunch spews some nonsense about what women want, it means that the next time I go into an interview with a male founder (and they are overwhelmingly male for some reason that I’m not going to address here, but that Penelope assures us has nothing to do with bias) who has read that nonsense, he may be thinking, consciously or subconsciously, “she doesn’t really want to work at this startup because she wants to have a baby.”
And frankly, that sucks for me and all the other women like me. Oh, did I mention that there are lots of other women like me? There are.
But let’s just look for a moment at what all of these other women, the ones with babies and without startups, are choosing to do. They are choosing to stay home because of...I don’t know what the current argument is. Hormones? Biology? Bad government policy? Nature?
It couldn’t possibly be bias or lack of opportunity because, of course, some women are choosing to work at startups, so it would be trivially easy for all women to choose to work at startups, right?
Except that my father’s law school class of 1963 had 3 women in it. That’s right. Three. Now, clearly more women could have joined the class. His law school didn’t have a 3 woman quota or anything.
But the women of 1963 chose not to go to law school. And I’m positive that there were all sorts of blowhards opining that women didn’t go to law school because they were too busy having babies, and this was perfectly normal, and we shouldn’t do a damn thing to promote more women going to law school because WON’T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN.
After all, we weren’t actively STOPPING women from going to law school (any longer). It was their choice! Except that, as Penelope points out, more than 50% of the law school graduates now are women.
So, far more women are now choosing to be lawyers. You know, despite the fact that they still have babies. What women wanted, with regard to law school attendance, somehow changed between 1963 and today.
Similarly, long before women had the right to vote in the US, many women didn’t actually want the right to vote. Some even felt that women were biologically not capable of voting well. And for years after they had the right to vote, many people still felt that it was the wrong decision.
How many women in the US do you know who don’t care about voting? Fewer than felt that way a hundred years ago, right?
The point is that “what women want” changes over time. What people want changes over time. Because what we want is hugely driven by social norms and massive cultural shifts and all sorts of things that may seem biological at the time but turn out not to be.
In other words, if suddenly there are a ton of women at startups kicking ass and being awesome, it might turn out that more young women want to join startups in the future. And 25 years from now, we’ll all be laughing at the idiots who said things like “women don’t want to vote...er...go to law school...I mean...join startups!”
Penelope, do you vote? Do you know women who went to law school? I do. And I am forever grateful to the women who fought not just for the right to do these things but to make them seem like totally normal things to do.
I salute the women who said, “Hey, wait a minute. Maybe having a vagina doesn’t determine what I have to want from life! Just because a lot of women want something, doesn’t mean that I have to want the exact same thing!”
And I’m still a little annoyed at the women who said, “Oh, women don’t WANT to vote. Voting is for men!” I take that back. I’m a lot annoyed at them. They sucked.
So stop doing it. Stop assuming other women want to make the same choices you do, especially when society has such an enormous and invisible impact on your choices. Stop assuming a young woman just starting her career knows everything about all of the wonderful, exciting career choices she could make.
And mostly, stop making it ok for other people to assume that I want what you want. That’s clearly not true, since what I want most right at this moment is to punch you in the face.
I am a woman. I want to work at a startup. I don’t want to have children. I want to vote. I want to wear stiletto heels and write jQuery, sometimes at the same time. In other words, I am an individual, and I have all sorts of wants that are neither determined nor predicted by my gender.
I am a woman, Penelope, but you don’t have any idea what I want. So, kindly shut the fuck up about it.
Thank you! I'd also love to point out that women who have babies _do_ want to work at start-ups. She messed up this bit of fact as well.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't have said better myself. It doesn't matter if you're a woman or a man, your behaviour is not gender driven. I don't know why people keep insisting in this idiotic idea.
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ReplyDelete*exhales*
ReplyDelete"Just because a lot of women want something, doesn’t mean that I have to want the exact same thing!”
ReplyDeleteIn other words, it's not about feminism, it's about individualism. The freedom to do what you want, & be judged as an individual rather than as a member of a group.
I seem to recall an angry Russian woman writing about this maybe half a century ago ... ;-)
Erm the post was about women STARTING startups not working at them. Whats amusing is in your post you even elude to the same fact. Want to change things? rather than whining about unfair blog posts why not go change the stats and start a startup.
ReplyDeleteOpinion aside there are some hard statistical facts in play that make MOST women less suited to the startup world than men. Maternity issues only being one. How about women on average take far more time off (vacation and sick leave) than men? Startups are hard core. They require long hours and often choosing work over social activities. Then there is the technical aspects. Men trend towards tech careers far more than women. Be it programming or otherwise.
Its a long chain of "why's"
Why are there more men in ceo roles?
why are there more men working in tech
why are there more men in the startup world.
Now for this conversation we get to stack all those
why are there more men in ceo roles at tech startups?
The questions need to be answered individually before they can be answered in complex form.
> *exhales*
ReplyDeleteThis. Thanks for the great article. TC has been going downhill for a long time and they're now at the same level as tabloids with pictures of aliens on the cover that you see while waiting in line for a checkout at the grocery store.
Thanks to everyone for the comments. I'm glad that this struck a nerve with some folks.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, Mr. Awesome, I started my own business doing consulting for startups. So, I'm not just whining about unfair blog posts. I'm, you know, running my own business. Is that not hard core enough for you? Thanks for proving why I needed to write this, though.
Note that I said MOST not all. It was a general "people should do rather than whine" statement. Sorry if that was unclear. ;-)
ReplyDeleteUh, I'm a woman. And I started a startup, and am currently founder and CEO. And I have two children. So all I can say is, amen Laura! (Still can't stand high heels, though.)
ReplyDeleteRight on sister! Except I both want children AND to work at a startup. That is the power of choice! Real choice, something Penelope obviously knows nothing about.
ReplyDeleteI hate commenters that cannot comprehend that you can, at the same time, complain about unfair blog posts AND be doing something that matters to you. Really, I am capable of chewing gum and walking at the same time. Also, I'm capable of running my own business and writing snarky blog posts. It's amazing I know. Unlike "Mr. Amazing" who is merely amazingly dense.
ReplyDeleteWhy are there more men in the start-up world? Many reasons, most of which are about socialization, discrimination, and group think, not biology.
The delta in sick leave between men and women in the one full statistical analysis I found was 40 days over their entire career. You are seriously suggesting that 2 days per year or less makes a difference in their ability to contribute to a start-up?
The problem isn't actual differences in sick leave, it's attitudes like "Mr. Awesome"'s, which make the baseline assumption that women are less able to contribute. This leads to fewer women working in start-ups, which correlates strongly with fewer women starting start-ups. (Most that start new start-ups have previously worked for one or more.)
Your two most recent post titles:
ReplyDeleteSTFU About What Women Want
Give the Users What They Really Want
Hah!
Consciousness-raising and I love the in-your-face stance, Deb. A great post!
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry about taking up your comment space without adding anything useful to the discussion, but I really wanted to chime in to say "thanks for writing this", and for saying it as bluntly as it needed to be said.
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ReplyDeleteYes! Had me completely with the simultaneous *stiletto heels* and *jQuery*!
ReplyDeleteYou earn my stamp of Complete Awesomeness as does this post. Individualism is where it's at- for someone to make ridiculous statements that categorize whole groups of people with ignorant generalizations and leads them to reduced opportunities and additional bias is (excuse my French) fucking absurd. Kudos to you for putting together one hell of a rant and fighting the good fight.
ReplyDeleteCheers!
Hey, Duncan Bayne and dwatson,
ReplyDeleteFeminism IS about individualism--it's about making individual choices meaningful by combating barriers erected against individual choice on the basis of gender. The blogger's argument that she, as an individual women, is prevented from achieving her individual goals by widespread social assumptions about the ability of women, is a quintessentially feminist appeal. Just because feminism is identified with left politics doesn't mean it's about mindless mediocrity and collectivism. (I could say that about a lot of things.)
shorter version: (1) don't tell this feminist that feminism isn't about individual choice. (2) don't assume everything reasonable must be something ayn rand said. (3)
To the blogger: apologies if you don't want to be characterized as a feminist. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but defending what I know about feminism.
You hit the nail precisely on the head - there's no reason at all assume that two people are in any way similar
ReplyDeleteI work for a startup that was created by a woman (and mom of 4 kids!) and many of the staff are Moms like me thrilled to be able to work at home for a person and company we believe in. Female CEOs exist!
ReplyDeleteI quit my job when I was 20, in college, and pregnant to help start a software company. I'm on my fourth company now, with plenty of side projects and startup investments. Women need to start asking why they can't have children and start companies. The flexibility is awesome, and since we're multitasking all the time anyway...why not?
ReplyDeleteI would put my son's education up against any sport and ballet taxi driver's kid anytime. Oh, and he's awesome and probably already sold your kid something he built or designed in a game.
All you need to know:
ReplyDeletePenelope Trunk had a stay-at-home husband whom she was horrible to, and they got divorced.
"I want to wear stiletto heels and write jQuery, sometimes at the same time."
ReplyDeleteRock on, sister.
Brilliant, and right. On. The. Fucking. Mark.
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to reading more of your stuff :-)
I got pregnant three months after starting Adaptive Path. I raised venture capital with a 6-year-old kid. My husband stayed home for a couple of years, and that was hard but also awesome. I started LUXr.co last year and my husband is my business partner. My kid is phenomenal. My career as a startup founder is equally phenomenal. My podiatrist forbade me from wearing stilettos, but I still rock em occasionally. +1 for Laura's rant!
ReplyDeleteBlogger didn't recognize me...but my name is janice fraser, and I made the above comment. Ha.
ReplyDeleteYou're now my rant hero.
ReplyDeleteLaura may not know this first hand - starting a startup is actually a superior option for a new mom especially if she prefers to be with the baby more during the first year. More women have babies when their personal life, finances are sorted. Meaning they are married to a reasonably successful man, they have a 4 bedroom house etc.
ReplyDeleteIf they went to work for themselves, they are on their own time, and as we know the first year of any startup may not have enough cash for offices - so she can offer her bigger house as the first venue. Plus since she is married, medical insurance is not an issue. These three factors combined, have made 3 of my friends quit their 9-5 once the baby was in the picture. Start their own company from their home. Hire a home nanny instead of daycare.
Down with all generalization!
ReplyDeleteThe baby stay up all night anyway, so it is just perfect to have an offshore team to interact with between feedings. That way the Nanny can get some sleep as well. In fact I think more women become first time CEOs just as their baby shows up. It just works really well actually.
ReplyDeleteFrom the TC article: "The problem is that people do not need to be told what they should choose. People are pretty good at making choices for themselves. Men can stay home. Women can do startups."
ReplyDeleteSums up your wasted time here I think...
For this line: "And mostly, stop making it ok for other people to assume that I want what you want. That’s clearly not true, since what I want most right at this moment is to punch you in the face."
ReplyDeleteI award you all the hugs.
"it means that the next time I go into an interview with a male founder who has read that nonsense, he may be thinking, consciously or subconsciously, “she doesn’t really want to work at this startup because she wants to have a baby.”"
ReplyDeleteHowever we wouldn't want to generalize what other people may or may not be thinking would we. Or imply their gender has anything to do with their decisions.
Here's the deal. She's the Brazen Careerist. She's looking at employment, not innovation. Oh wait, wasn't the Brazen Careerist a startup at one point? Wasn't she a co-founder? Never mind. I've decided now that she just doesn't want other women to compete with her.
ReplyDeleteBottom line, start ups are hard work. They require time, dedication, and a lack of a life of your own. If the startup is done correctly you should likely be in a position to put your life on hold for a fair amount of time. Unfortunately most "startups" today aren't startups. I see a lot of companies who do more talking about work than actually working. Kinda like "famous for being famous". The statement should have read "people who want a life outside of work don't want to work at startups". Now statistically speaking a lot of women want to settle down and have kids at some point. You may not want to and that's great for you. However a *LOT* of women do and despite what people say when that maternal instinct kicks in and the focus of your life/attention goes to your kids and your own dreams and career start to matter less, the thought creeps into your head. That's natural. *ANY* parent who has a kid and STILL wants to do a startup really needs a lesson in work/life balance. Either that or they are working at one of those swanky startups that don't actually DO anything.
ReplyDeleteThis made me laugh, nod vigorously in agreement and now I will be sharing it liberally.
ReplyDeleteBeing mad is wonderful when you can channel it and still be smart, engaging, and frankly, right. This is your experience and your world and opinion but you let it just be about you. Therefore, it's right. Well done Laura.
ReplyDeleteAs an architect who has heard an earful my entire career about why women "don't want" to do the hard work to get their architect's licenses after graduation (they are allergic to construction sites, I suppose - discrimination and doing all the work at home and all the long hours for no pay couldn't possibly be the issue), and also having a sister - with young kids no less - who is... wait for it... a FIREFIGHTER, I applaud this post with all my heart. The reason I can put in long hours is I have no kids; my sister pulls 24 hour shifts because her husband picks up the slack, and, wonder of wonders, likes taking care of his own kids. Wonder if that is an issue? Maybe women who want start-ups get NO HELP at home? Of course, male entrepreneurs ignore all the support they expect from their wives as a matter of course.
ReplyDeleteBut what really gets me about little Miss Trunk's homily is the "smarmy-b!tch-superior" attitude she oozes in this post towards all women, as if she wasn't one of us. Maybe she feels her own star rises a little higher if she is the rare bird in her field, the exception, and therefore superior to her gender, an "honorary" man, you might suppose.....
High tech will open to women. It is already happening. Look to Gen Y to kick the doors down fully. And try to hold your nose and soldier on while the ignorant and prejudiced amongst us get over the fact that women and men are different genders, not species.
"And frankly, that sucks for me and all the other women like me. Oh, did I mention that there are lots of other women like me? There are."
ReplyDeleteAbso-fucking-lutely!
"... I want to wear stiletto heels and write jQuery, sometimes at the same time."
Can I say - I love you! (No lesbo!)
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you! I have actually stopped reading what-her-faces posts as she strikes me as the tech version of a shock-jock. But I did read your post, and it made me smile, and made me proud to be standing with you as a women entrepreneur who is making her own choices.
ReplyDeleteLove love this post and @sp's comment about how some women do in fact wan to be the "rare bird" or the "honorary" man.
ReplyDeleteBeing one of the only women at a tech networking event can be fun if you want to be the life of the party -- but if you really want to break in as a respected peer, it can sometimes be intimidating. There was a UX meet-up event last week that had mixed feelings about going to, because the list was all male (with hipster eye-wear).
The reality is, as a woman, to be respected in the field you have to earn your stripes. I've seen guys leap from intern to VP, no experience to PM, and employee to partner in their 20s at double the rate than I do competent ladies. In part, this is due to the fact that their male bosses may see themselves in the younger male employees. Once there are more women on top, other women will rise to the top of start-ups faster -- or be inspired to start their own.
I think the funding environment, and tech scene in general, will be better for women, when more are doing start-ups. Yes it's nice to stand out, and I'm sure some VCs set funds aside to "diversify" their portfolio -- but when more women break through -- with the higher expectations there will also be higher valuations.
I want to dry hump your leg just a bit for this, Laura. Seriously. Because that's what *I* want to do. And it has nothing to do with my being a woman, either. Just a fan of some fina-fucking-ly rational thought on the subject. Quit yanking me around by my bra straps and let me get dressed my own damned self!
ReplyDeleteEven though I'm already starting a company it doesn't hurt to get a little pump-up like this! Because there are hurdles, mushy invisible hurdles, hard to identify and name even as we slog through them. It takes a little extra encouragement and motivation sometimes.
ReplyDeleteNot to side track but @blahstudent please reread what I wrote...nothing that I wrote was intended to go against the sentiment you noted, rather it was the reason why I gave this kudos (while broadening my view that this is something worth fighting for in regards to any group of people- as Laura pointed out). Actually, kudos to it again- great work and good luck with starting a company! I wish you all the best.
ReplyDeletePenelope Trunk is the homeless start-up founder's Ann Coulter. Bravo to Laura Klein for writing a practically perfect rejoinder to Trunk's pandering (shall we guess about TC's audience demographics?) and gender essentialism, and (willful?) blindness to structural inequality.
ReplyDeleteTrunk's piece is rather incredible: "Whoever started the TED Women’s conference is pathetic. Which would you rather say you spoke at? TED? Or the TED Ghetto?"
PRO-TIP: When making meaning pronouncements about what women want, remember to throw in some coded racism.
Fantastic post. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteI'm going to join the crowd of commenters noting that babies and startups aren't mutually exclusive -- I'm employee #3, I have a four-year-old. My career didn't start taking off until after I had her. I'm thinking my next gig might be starting a nonprofit.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'd ALSO like to note that just about all those women having babies? Imply a man *also having babies*. My husband has spent most of his career in startups -- come to think of it, he was employee #4 back when he was on paternity leave. Are men in startups somehow off the hook when it comes to babies? Having babies is a thing that only takes up our time if we happen to be women? *Really*?
I could rant, but I think it's time to get started with those stilettos and jQuery. (Which is, by the way, *literally* what I was doing yesterday.)
My kids are the reason I don't work at a start-up. I am a man. I choose to work less and have more family time. Why are we even having this conversation?
ReplyDeleteNow you are a founder who does not want kids. Would you hire an equally qualified single mother, single father, or a kid out of college?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mayank110.blogspot.com/
ReplyDeleteAnyone familiar with this article: "Women Can't Fight" by Jim Webb, former Secty of Navy? It's about women not belonging in the Navy or at the US Naval Academy. The parallels between Penelope's post and Jim Webb's article (written in 1979) are a little too close for comfort. Btw, I am a woman, I graduated from the Naval Academy, I served in the Navy, I started my own software company...and I have 2 kids. Coincidentally, I just wrote this: "Why Shouldn't a Woman Start a Software Technology Company? at http://blog.mommazoo.com/ and my start-up is this: www.mommazoo.com
ReplyDeleteNo one should generalize what women should or shouldn't do. Hard stop.
Hi Laura, I think you've made some really great points here but also made some pretty serious mistakes.
ReplyDeleteI ask you to read this and see what you think:
http://danielmiessler.com/blog/disambiguation-of-the-women-in-technology-problem
Thanks for telling it straight Laura (as per usual!). I am shocked that the gender inequality in tech seems to have gotten more pronounced since we worked together (at a startup) in 1999 instead of less (as I would have predicted then). I have noticed a lot of people harping on the open source contributor statistic and I think that part of the reason this gap might be wider than the general engineering gap is that women might be more likely to spend non-work-time on friends/family than on, uh, working more for free. And that doesn't mean I don't "love" programming (although I am getting a bit sick of some of the more tedious aspects of it after 15 years web dev work at startups). I recruited a second woman to join my startup who has just finished maternity leave and she is kicking some serious ass (on the business side) so the kids thing should not be a barrier. Choosing balance in life (even at a startup) is completely possible and we shouldn't propagate the myth that working at a startup is akin to joining some monastic order. It's closer to joining a co-op, where it's just in your own best interest to work hard & do a good job b/c in the end you're (hopefully) helping to make your investment pay off. I don't see why everyone doesn't want to work at startups. Job security at a big "stable" company is a thing of the past.
ReplyDelete